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  • Today R.T. is talking to Peter Joseph, activist and filmmaker.

    今天來到"今日俄羅斯"的是彼德·約瑟夫 一位行動主義者和製片人

  • He's the founder of The Zeitgeist Movement and has recently released

    他是時代精神運動的建立者 他最近發佈了

  • his newest film 'Zeitgeist: Moving Forward'.

    他最新的電影《時代精神:邁步向前》

  • Peter, thank you for joining us today.

    彼德 謝謝你今天能加入我們

  • For our viewers who may not be very familiar with it

    你能對那些不熟悉時代精神運動的觀眾們

  • please briefly explain what The Zeitgeist Movement is.

    簡要地介紹一下時代精神運動嗎?

  • - The Zeitgeist film series I'll first point out

    -我先要指出的是 時代精神系列電影

  • is my own creative expression

    是我個人的創意性表達

  • and it carried over with an influence and inspiration

    它在傳播的過程中 為時代精神運動裡

  • to The Zeitgeist Movement through a number of people

    那些想要積極投身社會變革的人

  • that wanted to start being active in social change.

    帶來了影響和啟迪

  • The Zeitgeist Movement overall

    整個時代精神運動

  • is built upon the ideology of The Venus Project

    都是建立在維納斯計劃的理念上

  • which is worth mentioning, the life work of Jacque Fresco.

    我覺得有必要提一下雅克·法斯科的終身事業

  • What that means is all of the work that he's done

    包括他一生作為工程師做過的所有事情:

  • throughout his entire life as an engineer: compiling sustainable designs

    彙集擁有永續性的設計

  • compiling ideologies, value orientations

    整合各種意識形態 價值觀導向

  • compiling ideas essentially that make us in tandem with nature.

    整合本質上能讓我們與自然相連結的思想

  • If we want to approach all the problems in the world, we have to think about it technically

    如果我們想要解決世界上的所有問題 我們必須從技術角度思考

  • not through political parties or the acquisition or movement of money.

    而非政治團體和非金融操控的角度出發

  • It's time we just go straight to it because we understand it now.

    因為我們現在都理解了這點 所以是時候直奔主題了

  • Science... I say that and people don't quite understand what I mean.

    科學... 我說了之後很多人並不能完全理解我的意思

  • I'm not talking about an esoteric view, but a firm, physical science

    我不是要討論難懂的觀點 而是切實的科學技術

  • of what it means to meet the needs of the human population.

    以真正滿足人類的需求

  • -You often talk about the problems caused by our current monetary system.

    -你經常提到所有問題 都是現今的金融貨幣體系導致的

  • How is it that by taking away money from the equation

    那怎麼將去除貨幣

  • you really think we can eliminate

    以及消滅犯罪和疾病這些問題

  • such problems as crime and disease?

    等同起來呢?

  • - It's not just taking away the physical currency.

    -並不僅僅只是去除實體的流通貨幣

  • It's the entire system itself. Let's make sure

    問題在於整個體系本身 我先把話完全說清楚

  • that's abundantly clear. When I talk about money

    我先把話完全說清楚 當我提到貨幣時

  • I'm referring to the monetary structure and its holistic entity.

    我指的是金融貨幣結構及它所涵蓋的全部

  • Let's start with crime: 90-95% of all crimes are based on property.

    讓我們從犯罪入手:90至95%的犯罪都歸因於財產

  • A guy will run out and steal a car that's worth $15,000.

    一個人沒錢了 就去偷一輛價值一萬五美元的車

  • He'll get arrested and thrown in jail for possibly 10 years

    他就會被逮捕 並被囚禁約十年

  • at an expense of probably $300,000. Just give him the car.

    這將花費大約三十萬美元 還不如直接把車給他

  • It's inefficient, the entire crime and punishment

    犯罪和刑罰整個過程都是沒有效率的

  • so give people what they need

    給人們所需要的

  • and you'll begin to see that needs and wants start to divide.

    然後你就開始看到"需求"和"欲求"開始區別開來

  • We live in a subculture based on wants.

    我們生活在一個基於"欲求"的亞文化之中

  • We create all these artificial wants. People want their stylistic

    我們創造了這些人為的"欲求" 人們想要精美的物質財富

  • and materialistic ideas, and the things they want to own

    人們想要精美的物質財富 而且他們想要"擁用"

  • and show their property and status: This is a concoction.

    來顯示他們的財產和地位: 這是一種捏造

  • Then there's needs on the other end of the spectrum.

    而在範圍的另一端是"需求"

  • Needs are true, viable things

    "需求"是實在的 能維持生存的事物

  • and when people don't have their needs met, crime emerges.

    當人們無法滿足需求時 就會出現犯罪

  • Crime is easily related to money

    犯罪總是與金錢相關

  • and there's only one small percentage of really serious violent crimes

    只有少數是非常嚴重的暴力犯罪

  • and even many of those come from psychological neuroses.

    甚至其中的大多數都由神經官能症導致

  • You can research the work of James Gilligan.

    你可以去研究下詹姆斯·吉力根( James Gilligan)的工作

  • They come from bad conditions

    他們是由惡劣條件導致的

  • and in a Resource-Based Economy, that is a very important issue.

    而在資源導向型經濟中 這是一個非常重要的問題

  • It's not just the technical management of resources.

    這不僅僅是資源的科學管理

  • It's understanding that the entire environment has to be low-stress.

    我們還要認識到整個環境不能被過度開發

  • -You also talk about our over-reliance on fossil fuels

    -你也提到我們對石化燃料的過分依賴

  • and how this will eventually lead to a financial collapse.

    以及這件事最終將如何導致經濟崩潰

  • What do you think that it will eventually take

    你覺得什麼最終會

  • for us to to start looking at our energy issues a lot differently?

    使得我們開始重新審視能源問題?

  • Does gas have to be 10 dollars a gallon?

    天然氣難道必須是一加侖十美元嗎?

  • - If you're born into this system or indoctrinated into it

    如果你生於這個體系 或被灌輸了這個體系的思維

  • and you think the system is working

    而且你真的認為這個體系沒問題

  • 10 dollars a gallon might be the rude awakening it takes

    那麼一加侖十美元 可能就是赤裸裸的覺醒代價

  • to get society to understand what's happening.

    好讓社會知道到底發生了什麼事

  • - Let's talk about how over-consumption is affecting us in real time.

    -我們來討論一下正在發生的且影響著我們的過度消費

  • Here in Los Angeles we're dealing with high unemployment

    在洛杉磯我們面臨著高失業率

  • unprecedented hunger. Does it really have to be this way?

    前所未有的饑貧 難道非要變成這樣不可嗎?

  • I think a lot of us over the years have grown to learn

    我想我們其中很多人 經過歲月的洗禮意識到

  • that there has to be some suffering in this world, right?

    這個世界上必然要存在著苦難 對吧?

  • - Capitalist, free-market system, I don't believe it's going to hold up

    -資本家 自由市場 我不相信這些

  • for that much longer. I'm not a prophet

    還能維持多久 我不是一個先知

  • but I think that it's going to show itself

    但我想事實會證明一切

  • and people are going to begin to see that it's intrinsically flawed.

    人們將會開始看到這個體系 本質上存在缺陷

  • The collapse of industrial civilization to put it

    誇張地講 工業文明將會

  • very exaggeratedly

    崩潰

  • because we base everything on oil is a very terrifying idea.

    因為把一切發展都奠基於石油 這是非常可怕的想法

  • I am not a doomsday theorist. I'm simply looking at the statistics.

    我不是一個末日理論者 我只是研究數據

  • If we aren't adapting ourselves to renewables

    如果我們還不適應使用充足的可再生能源

  • which we have plenty of: We just need a Systems Approach

    我們只是需要"系統性方法"

  • to energize them and get them going to change the global infrastructure

    來使它們提供能量 並用它們來改變全球的基礎構架

  • which we could easily do if there was an interest to do so.

    如果大家有興趣的話 這簡直易如反掌

  • It's a technical phenomenon. We don't need money to do it.

    這是一個技術層面的問題 我們並不需要錢來做這件事

  • We just do it. You know what I mean?

    "做就對了" 你懂我意思嗎?

  • If that doesn't ocur, we're definitely going to see more wars

    如果不去做這件事 絕對會有更多的戰爭發生

  • and extremely high gasoline prices. We're going to have a huge profiteering subculture.

    汽油價格會變得極其高 牟取暴利的亞文化將會出現

  • The collapse of society will be met with a huge profiteering group

    當社會崩潰時 會有一個巨大團體牟取暴利

  • that are shorting all the interests, that are the owners of the goods

    賣空所有股份 這些人就是物品的擁用者

  • that are going scarce because scarcity equates to more profit

    物品會"匱乏" 因為"匱乏"等於更多利潤

  • and that's another thing I think people should understand.

    這是我希望大家理解的另一件事

  • There's no intrinsic interest

    在每個人都能安居樂業的社會中

  • in the whole of society for the well-being of everyone

    不存在既得利益

  • and there isn't going to be as far as I'm concerned

    就我個人而言 也不認為會有

  • a legitimate economic recovery. We're not going to see...

    一個正常的經濟復甦 我們將不會看到...

  • The heyday of the human species, as far as I'm concerned, is over

    我認為人類的全盛期 已經結束了

  • until radical shifts are made because of how important

    除非發生巨大的改變 這是因為石油問題

  • the hydrocarbon issue has been, and no one is doing anything

    一直以來的重要性 但卻沒有人做任何事

  • to counter it. What we need really is a 'Manhattan Project'

    去抵制它 我們真正需要的是另一個"曼哈頓計劃"

  • but for renewable energy research

    但這次是為了研究可再生能源

  • and without having to worry about limitations of corporations

    不再需要擔心公司的種種限制

  • to get it done. To answer your question, there's not going to be

    而無法實現 回答你的問題:將不會有一個

  • an economic recovery that people are expecting.

    人們所希望的經濟復甦

  • -But it was many poor and middle-class Americans

    -但是有很多窮人和中產階級

  • who contributed to the victory of our current president.

    為了我們現任總統的當選做出了貢獻

  • Is their voice not being heard?

    他們的心聲沒被聽見嗎?

  • - Does anyone have a voice in this democracy we call America?

    -在美國這樣的"民主"社會 有誰擁有自己的聲音嗎?

  • It doesn't matter how loud someone yells or how many letters

    一個人喊得有多麼響 給國會議員

  • they write to their congressman or how much they complain

    寫了多少信 他們抱怨過多少次 都不重要

  • very little can change what is set in motion

    這些都不會改變固有的東西

  • by the very nature of the political system which is simple:

    因為政治體系的本質很簡單:

  • It's appointed dictatorship, boom!

    它就是被認可的獨裁!

  • Once they're in power there's very little any of us can do

    一旦政客掌握權力 我們就無能為力了

  • and since the entire thing is subservient to corporate interests

    又因為整個體系通過稅收和其他一切

  • through taxation and everything else

    屈從於公司盈利

  • you see that the political corporate interest in what John Perkins calls

    你就能看到政治和公司的利益 存在於約翰·柏金斯(John Perkins)所稱的

  • 'The Corporatocracy' is the phenomenon that exists.

    "公司王國"現象之中

  • The public is always going to be given the short end of the stick

    自從君主崇拜的時代開始 普通大眾就一直是

  • and always has been since the divinity of kings.

    以後也將總是處於劣勢

  • Nothing's really changed. We live in an advanced form of feudalism and nothing more.

    從來沒有真正的改變 我們只是生活在封建社會的高級形式中

  • - In the past you've pointed out the dangers

    -過去 你指出過

  • of our massive debt problem here in America.

    美國巨額債務所帶來的危險

  • Do you think that this is an issue that's just impossible to resolve

    你是否覺得這個問題是無法解決的

  • even with the massive austerity measures that are being proposed?

    即使實施目前提出的大規模緊縮措施?

  • - Austerity measures are an abomination

    -緊縮政策令人厭惡

  • a complete atrocity against the general population

    是完全不利於普通大眾的惡行

  • as all austerity measures have been from the World Bank or any other institution

    如同所有由世界銀行 或者其他組織實施的緊縮政策

  • because the problem isn't the people.

    因為問題不在民眾

  • They cut natural gas programs, NPR

    政府削減天然氣項目 美國公共廣播電台

  • things like education.

    以及教育的預算

  • These are the core attributes of human survival.

    這些都是人類生存的重要屬性

  • They cut welfare. Why are they cutting that

    他們削減福利 為什麼他們要削減福利?

  • when we're spending a trillion dollars a year on war?

    可他們每年在戰爭中花數兆美元?

  • Where is the logic with all of this?

    邏輯何在?

  • - In your film, you talk about how robots will eventually be doing

    -在你的電影裡 你提到機器最終會

  • all the jobs that humans are doing.

    替代人類做所有的工作

  • To a certain extent that's already happening

    這在一定程度上已經存在

  • robots are taking the jobs of thousands of people.

    機器已經取代成千上萬人的工作

  • This sounds like a bad thing

    這聽起來像壞事

  • to those workers that are losing these jobs now

    對那些正在失業的工人來說

  • but you think that mechanization will eventually be a great thing.

    但你認為 機械化最終會成為一件偉大的事情

  • -Technological unemployment has manifested throughout time.

    -因科技導致的失業 隨著時間顯現出來

  • Every major labor change that we've had as a civilization

    我們這個文明每次主要勞動方式的改變

  • has been based on the advent of technology from the Agricultural Revolution

    一直都是基於新科技的降臨 從農業革命

  • (the invention of the plow) to the Industrial Revolution

    (犁的發明) 到工業革命

  • (the invention of the power machine) until we come to the Information Age

    (動力機械的發明) 再到現在的資訊時代

  • we have now where everyone is interacting with computer systems.

    在這個時代每個人都與電腦系統互動

  • The contradiction of capitalism by some economic theorists

    一些經濟理論家所說的資本主義矛盾

  • that investigate this idea that we're displacing ourselves

    認為我們正用機械化取代自己

  • with mechanization that can create more

    機械化生產力更高

  • provide more, but yet reducing human purchasing power...

    但卻降低人們的購買力...

  • What you have is the more we mechanize, less jobs

    實際情況是 產業越機械化 工作機會

  • less money in circulation, so how can an economy work?

    與流通的貨幣會越少 那經濟如何繼續運轉?

  • It's starting to stifle itself because of this very phenomenon.

    經濟就會因為這種現象開始窒息

  • Technology is more efficient than labor. It's time to maximize that.

    科技比人力勞動更有效率 是時候將其潛能發揮至最大化了

  • Instead of corporations feeling that they would be providing

    相對於企業自詡著 提供大眾就業機會的社會服務

  • a social service to keep people employed, we say

    提供大眾就業機會的社會服務 讓我們說:

  • "Forget the labor crippling system. We're in a different paradigm now."

    "忘掉殘缺的人力勞動體系吧 我們現在處於不同的模式裡"

  • We can create an abundance on this planet, an 'Access Abundance'.

    我們可以在這個星球上創造富足 或者"取得富足"

  • We can have vertical farms fully automated off the coast of Los Angeles

    我們可以在洛杉磯的海岸 建設完全自動化的垂直農場

  • that could produce all of the organic food for all of Los Angeles.

    就可以為整個洛杉磯提供所有的有機食物

  • - You make the claim that our current socioeconomic system

    -你宣稱我們當前的社會經濟體系

  • is just not working. For people who agree with you

    是無效的 對那些支持你

  • or want to create change right away, what suggestions do you have for them?

    或想要馬上改變的人 你有什麼建議給他們嗎?

  • - If the patterns and trends that I see continue:

    -如果我看到的這些模式和趨勢 繼續下去的話:

  • ignoring of energy issues

    忽視能源問題

  • ignoring the growing instability through society

    忽視社會正在加劇的不穩定

  • the naivety of the general population to think

    普通大眾天真地認為

  • "Oh, everything is just going to be OK"

    "啊 一切都會好起來的"

  • these things will coalesce into what I consider collapse

    那麼這些聯合起來 就會變成我認為的崩潰

  • and it's a multifaceted, very difficult thing to anticipate

    而且是多層面的 非常難以預測

  • and it won't occur in some big 'you wake up one day and everyone's on fire'

    而且它的發生不會像 "你某天醒來 所有人都著火了"那樣突然

  • it will be a slow grind of more unemployment

    它會慢慢到來 伴隨更多失業

  • extreme poverty, suffering, death, more wars

    極度貧窮 苦難 死亡 更多的戰爭

  • more basic social instability, rationing of resources.

    與社會基礎的動盪 以及資源的定額供應

  • People should boycott the major banks

    人們應該聯合抵制主要的銀行

  • especially the banks that are part of the Federal Reserve cartel.

    特別是那些屬於聯邦準備的壟斷

  • This is a corrupt financial institution that has a cartel of private banks

    這是一個腐化的金融機構 一個私人銀行壟斷集團

  • and everyone seems to think it's OK. People are beginning to realize

    而且看似大家都覺得沒有問題 但人們開始意識到

  • that people in power are preserving themselves

    有權勢的人在維護著自己

  • and they really don't have a genuine interest to help anyone else.

    他們並沒有真誠的興趣來幫助他人

  • I do suggest that people begin to be more conscious

    我建議大家要開始變得更為清醒

  • and try to find other sources of information.

    並嘗試獲取其他訊息來源

  • I happen to enjoy RT independent media, more independent media

    我十分欣賞"今日俄羅斯" 這類更為獨立的媒體

  • and get away from the dominant institutions. Imagine

    遠離占主導地位的機構

  • years ago when you lived in a society

    想像數年之前 你生活在一個

  • where all you had was a newspaper. There was no television.

    只有報紙的社會 當時沒有電視

  • All you got was the newspaper in your front door. Imagine how easy it was

    你能得到的只是扔在門前的報紙 想想當時

  • for people to control what people thought. Don't ever join the military.

    要控制人們的思想是多麼簡單 不要加入軍隊

  • Support the people that are there and respect them as human beings.

    但要支持軍人 並把他們作為人類同胞來尊重

  • When I speak to people in the military, I say "Just get out!"

    當我對軍人講話時 我會說:"儘管離開吧!"

  • I keep respect for the people that go into this. I feel for them.

    我尊重加入軍隊的人 我同情他們

  • The poorer Americans that have been forced, coerced

    這些人是較為貧窮的美國人 受到經濟結構的強迫和壓搾

  • by the economic structure to get money for college, and boom!

    受到經濟結構的強迫和壓搾 才能湊足上大學的錢 結果卻是"砰!"

  • They're thrown into this hugely detrimental psychological environment

    他們被扔進對心理造成巨大傷害的環境中

  • the shell-shock and everything that emerges

    炮彈休克和其它問題就會出現

  • the one in four veterans that commit suicide.

    有四分之一的老兵自殺

  • It is not in our basic human development to just kill each other.

    互相殺戮並不符合我們人類的基本進步

  • I think that it really is a bad state of mind and causes more hurt than anything else

    我覺得惡劣的心理狀態引起的傷害 比其他一切更嚴重

  • and in the larger perspective geopolitically all it does is create animosity.

    而從更大的地域和政治視角來看 它只會製造仇恨

  • If you took all the money we spend on war and applied it to renewable energies

    如果你把我們花在戰爭上的所有錢 用在可再生能源

  • or applied it to anything social, you could resolve that problem in a second.

    或任何社會性的事務上 你可以瞬間解決那些問題

  • If you took all the scientists that are currently developing weapons

    如果你召集所有正在開發武器的科學家

  • and put them on how to actually redesign a sustainable society...

    並讓他們去研究怎樣重新設計一個永續的社會...

  • If you get out of hydrocarbon economy

    如果你能脫離石油的經濟

  • if you had people actually utilize the interests of the well-being of the planet

    如果你真的對下列事宜感興趣 即讓這個星球和全人類

  • and its human species, if we just simply made that decision

    實現和平幸福 如果我們能就這樣作出決定

  • instead of constantly trying to kill each other

    而不是一直想著去殺死對方

  • for whatever temporal purpose or resource, geopolitical alignment

    因為不管暫時性目的 資源 地緣政治走向如何

  • or whatever strategy of dominance happens to be the flavor of the month

    不管統治階層的政策 是否正好符合時機

  • if we could just get away from that

    只要我們能夠拋棄這些

  • we'd be much better off, to put it very frankly.

    非常坦白講 我們的日子就會更好

Today R.T. is talking to Peter Joseph, activist and filmmaker.

今天來到"今日俄羅斯"的是彼德·約瑟夫 一位行動主義者和製片人

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