Hi, welcome to China Uncensored,

歡迎收看《中國解密》

I'm your host, Chris Chappell.

我是主持人 Chris Chappell

We're in Taiwan as part of our Pivot to Asia Tour.

我們來到了亞太再平衡之旅 中關鍵的一站：台灣

Is Taiwan a province of China?

究竟台灣是中國的省份？

An independent country?

是獨立的國家？

Or just an awkward-to-describe region?

或者只是一個令人難以形容的地區呢？

Yes, Taiwan may be a difficult place for many of our American viewers to understand.

是的，對不少美國觀眾來說 台灣實在令人百思不得其解

For instance,

舉例來說吧

Taiwan politics has successful third parties.

台灣的政治締造出成功的第三黨

Sorry, Gary Johnson.

歹勢啦蓋瑞·強生

And Jill Stein.

還有吉爾·史坦

Two main parties have dominated the Taiwanese political landscape since the 1990s:

自 1990 年代以來，兩個主要 政黨主導了台灣的政治局勢：

The KMT, which favors closer ties with mainland China,

一個是傾向於和中國大陸 保持密切聯繫的國民黨

and the DPP, which currently dominates the government and views Taiwan as a separate country.

另外則是將台灣視為獨立國家 同時也是目前的執政黨：民進黨

But the elections in January that put the DPP in power

然而促使民進黨執政的 1 月大選

also saw the success of a third political party:

也見證了第三政黨的成功

the NPP, founded by several well-known activists in Taiwan.

由台灣幾位著名的社運人士 所成立的時代力量黨

Including Taiwanese heavy metal music star and now legislator,

黨員包括台灣重金屬搖滾歌手

Freddy Lim.

如今當選立委的林昶佐

The NPP grew out of the 2014 Sunflower Movement.

時代力量在 2014 年太陽花學運後崛起

When students occupied Taiwan's legislature

當時學生們佔領了台灣的立法院長達 24 天

for 24 days, to protest a controversial trade deal with mainland China.

為了抗議政府與中國 所訂下備受爭議的貿易協議

I had the opportunity to sit down

這次我有機會

with current NPP chairman,

與時代力量的現任主席

Mr. Huang Kuo-chang,

黃國昌先生會面

to discuss the Chinese Communist Party's encroachment in Taiwan and Hong Kong,

一同談談中國共產黨 對台灣和香港的侵略

and the future of democracy in mainland China.

以及中國大陸未來的民主局勢

Thank you for joining us, Mr. Huang.

黃先生，感謝您參與訪談

My first question is,

首先我想請問您

what is the goal of the NPP as a political party?

時代力量的政黨目標是什麼？

We want to become the second-largest political party in the near future.

[時代力量黨主席　黃國昌] 我們希望在不久的將來成為第二大政黨

The NPP - New Power Party - was founded last January,

NPP─時代力量─於去年 1 月成立

kind of growing out of the Sunflower Movement.

算是經由太陽花學運而誕生

Our strongest supporting base

我們最強大的支持來源

is young generations.

來自於年輕的一代

And you mentioned the NPP sort of came out of the Sunflower Movement.

你提到時代力量算是 從太陽花學運中應運而生

A lot of the political parties that came out of that movement

許多從該學運中興起的政黨

are often accused of being anti-China.

經常會被指控為反中

How would you respond to that?

你如何回應這個說法呢？

It's not anti-China.

我們並非反中

It's pro-democracy.

而是支持民主

Pro-freedom.

支持自由

Pro-human rights.

支持人權

So that has nothing to do with "against China."

因此這與「反中」無關

But to keep our way of life.

而是為了要維持我們的生活方式

To keep the democracy in Taiwan

維持台灣的民主制度

more vibrant, more mature.

並讓它更加活耀且成熟

Do you think there is a risk to Taiwanese democracy?

你認為有什麼正危及台灣的民主嗎？

Oh, sure!

喔，當然啊！

It's happening every day.

這每天都在發生

Our biggest threat

我們最大的威脅

is from the Chinese Communist Party.

是來自於中國共產黨

But you will not see any TV channels

但你絕對看不到任何一台電視頻道

dare to criticize the Chinese Communist Party.

敢批評中國共產黨

Why?

為什麼呢？

Because the enormous economic influence

因為中國對台灣的許多大公司

China has over Taiwan's many big corporations

都有極大的經濟影響力

which control most of our TV news.

而這些大公司掌控了 絕大多數的台灣新聞

How do you feel about the current situation in Hong Kong?

你對香港目前的情勢有何看法？

I...

我…

To be frank,

坦白說

I'm a little bit worried.

我有點擔心

If we look at what is happening in Hong Kong right now,

看看香港發生了多少事

Not only is democracy disappearing,

不僅民主正在消失中

But also, its rule of law is seriously undermined

而且它的法治也受到嚴重的破壞

from all kinds of pressure from the Beijing government.

再加上來自北京政府的各種 壓力

I know during the Umbrella Movement,

我聽說在雨傘運動期間

you had been denied a visa to travel to Hong Kong.

你曾經申請香港旅簽遭到拒絕

Have you been back since?

在那之後你有成功去過香港嗎？

And here now, I'm still

此時此刻，我仍然

not allowed to go to Hong Kong.

不被允許進入香港

Why do you think that is?

你認為是出自於什麼原因呢？

The Beijing government does not like me.

北京政府看我不順眼

We support all democratic movements in China.

因為我們支持中國所有的民主運動

We support...

我們支持…

- In mainland China?

- 在中國大陸？

Yes.

沒錯

And we support all the lawyers, and we admired what they did in China.

我們也支持當地的所有律師

It requires a lot of courage to stand out against

我們很佩服他們在中國的所做所為

the Chinese Communist Party.

這需要很大的勇氣才能挺身而出反抗中國共產黨

How do you see the futures of Hong Kong and Taiwan being tied together?

台灣和香港的未來如何緊緊相繫？

What happened in Hong Kong really gave many Taiwanese a lot to think about.

香港所發生的事 給了台灣人許多思考的機會

That is also why we try our very best to support

這也是為何我們會盡全力支持

all the democratic movements happening in Hong Kong right now.

此時此刻香港正在進行的所有民主運動

Because we realized that if

因為我們意識到

the Chinese Communist Party can change

若是中國共產黨能改變

the way of life in Hong Kong.

香港的生活方式

It is also very damaging and dangerous for us -

那對於想維持原有生活方式的台灣來說

To keep our way of life.

中國也會是非常具有殺傷力且危險的存在

So since the Taiwanese people

所以既然台灣人民

and the people in Hong Kong

及香港人民

both want democracy,

都想要民主

I think it's very important

我認為，香港和台灣應該同心協力

for Hong Kong and Taiwan to stand together

反抗北京政府的獨裁政體

against the authoritarian regime from the Beijing government.

這是非常重要的

What do you think the young people in Hong Kong and Taiwan can do together?

你認為香港和台灣的年輕人能夠一起做些什麼？

We can support each other.

我們能互相支持

When our friends in Hong Kong came to Taiwan

當香港的朋友來到台灣時

to talk with us, and to discuss

能與我們一同討論

what they can do in Hong Kong,

他們在香港能做些什麼

to change the status quo,

來改變現狀

and what they can learn from our experience

還有他們可以從我們的經驗中學到

of becoming a democratic country,

該如何成為一個民主國家

There are simply too many things,

有太多事情

too many experiences we can share with each other.

太多經驗是我們可以互相分享的

What do you think the role of these young people is?

你認為年輕人所扮演的角色是什麼？

In the past,

在過去

many people believed young people don't vote.

許多人認為年輕人不投票

So their voice can't be ignored

所以他們的聲音

in the political arena.

在政治上往往遭到忽視

But after those civic movements,

但經過這些公民運動之後

our young generation not only came out to vote,

我們的年輕一代不僅出來投票

but they will also try to influence their parents -

而且還會試圖影響他們的父母

even their grandpas and grandmas -

甚至他們的祖父母

to change the way they vote.

試圖去改變他們的投票方式

And how do you think the United States could help Taiwan better deal with mainland China?

那麼你認為美國可以如何幫助台灣，使之更能對付中國大陸呢？

I think with the help from the United States.

我認為在美國的協助之下

Taiwan, we have a better chance

台灣將有更好的機會

to be able to build

能夠培養出

sufficient capability for us to defend

足夠的能力來捍衛

our own democracy.

我們的民主

So to our American audience,

所以對美國觀眾來說

why do you think they should be concerned about the situation in Hong Kong and Taiwan?

你覺得為什麼他們應該 要關注香港和台灣的局勢？

Look at what China did for the past few years.

看看中國在過去幾年內做了哪些事

They tried to

他們試圖

change the status quo in East Asia.

改變東亞地區的現狀

and by China's unilateral actions,

而在中國單方面的行動下

the South China Sea region became one of the most dangerous regions in the world.

南海地區已成為世界上最危險的地區之一

And it not only affects

這不僅影響

people living in this region,

生活在當地的人民

But also affect

而且它還影響了

the world order.

整個世界的秩序

And even in the United States,

甚至影響到美國

American people's interests,

包括美國人民的利益

By maintaining the stability

該地區的穩定性

in this region, and also the Americans' business interest.

以及美國的商業利益

So if the United States chooses not to do anything

因此若是美國不採取任何行動

to stop China,

來阻止中國

this threat to the United States had from China

那麼中國對美國的威脅

is going to be increasing significantly.

將會明顯增加

Well, thank you very much for meeting with me today, Mr. Huang.

好的，黃先生，非常感謝您今天與我會面

I have one final question, it's very important.

我有最後一個非常重要的問題

Do you think you could get me a spot in Freddy Lim's band?

你能幫我加入閃靈樂團嗎？

What?!

蛤？！

I could ask him, but I don't see that being a big problem.

我可以問他，不過我想這應該不成問題

Alright, great! - Yeah, okay!

- 噢耶，太棒了 - 是的，OK！

- Thank you very much! - Thank you.

- 非常感謝！- 謝謝